Kincrome - Ugggh Ripoff Cheap Shit Tools

I bought a pack of these....

The Kincrome Wood Carving Set - Buck Bros 5 Piece

They do not list them on their website as wood carving tools, they classify them as "Striking & Prying" - Chisel Sets.  Only $114 - not including GST (add on 10% for your hassles)

For real? 

Striking and Prying - with my wood carving chisels?

Here let me show you how a hammer works.....



Part No: K9010

• Sizes:
1 x 1/2" Firmer Chisel
1 x 1/4" Front Gouge
1 x 1/4" Corner Chisel
1 x 1/4" Front Bent Gouge
1 x 1/2" Straight Gouge
1 x 1/4" Parting Tool
• High Carbon Tool Steel
• Drop Forged
• Steel Cap (no there isn't)
• Hardened and Tempered
• Tapered Blade for Balance
• All blades 3" long
• Made in The USA (No they are not - the blades are made in China and the handles are molded on in the USA)


And not only are they as blunt as all fuck - most of them have flat bits where the edges are supposed to be, because forget about honing them to a razors edge, they are not even ground back enough to have an edge.

This is a screw driver - it has a flat edge. It's not very good for carving wood.

(but some of them can be IF you sharpen them)

This is the cutting edges on the Kincrome "Buck Brothers" wood carving tools - as is out of the packet.

Mostly flat spots, burrs, the bevel is around 50* on the gouges, when it ought to be 25* etc., the metal is a bit on the soft side, the finish on some of them is appalling, and only one of them would just reluctantly cut wood - the rest of them? - Forget it.

The shiny flat spots - or the "cutting edges" are shiny FLAT spots, that have the sun reflecting off them. The edges ARE supposed to look like razor blades and cut like them too.

So I will add in the images of the edges and the comparative edges of the Pfiel carving tools - for a comparison - and you can buy them from Carbatec.


Epic Failure. Flat Edge - ~Variable 40* off centre bevel.

The ones from Carbatec.



The Bevel on the Pfiel.

Not even sharp.

Nice burr on the flat edge.

Rough as guts.

~50* bevel and a flat edge.

Flat edge and a very bad 45* bevel.

The ones from Carbatec.

 

So after gleefully unwrapping my hard earned... and then going, "Oooo these are shitty tools aren't they?" I re-read the Kincrome spiel on the packet that said;

1. "Made to Kincrome Australia Pty Ltd specifications and quality standards.....

2. The Kincrome group guarantees these products against faulty workmanship.... and ...... at their discretion, will repair or replace faulty products free of charge."

Evidently they are talking out their arses at me.

They seem to think that selling what should be "fatal if fallen on" and "cut to the bone - no problemo" razor sharp tools, with edges like the blunt side of butter knives, is just fucking dandy.

So if I raise the issue with them that they are in fact selling shit, because their in house tool technicians are more tool than technician, will they send me a NEW set that is actually RAZOR sharp, instead of not even having a cutting edge? Or will they take back my "non cutting ones" and send them to a guy who actually can regrind them manually to the correct bevel and then put a polished razor sharp edges on them? Or should I send them to some guy with the gear to do it well and fast and send them the bill? or should I do it myself... and send them the bill?

To contact us:
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To fill out this form please fill in your required details, check the appropriate boxes and give a short description of your enquiry and press submit. Kincrome will get back to you within one working day.

 
So I sent them this email:

Bought a packet of these yesterday.

Wood Carving Set
Buck Bros
5 Piece

These either are as blunt as all fuck, or don't even have a ground edge, out of the packet.

If I buy tools such as carving tools etc.,  I expect them to come with razor edges, and be fit for working out of the packet.

I refuse to spend an hour or two of my time and skills, honing and lapping them and getting them ready to use.

I will either bill you for two hours of my time or you send me another set that are razor sharp and all ready to use.

35 days later...........

 And?


Will they give me some bullshit reply or will they give me a properly razor sharp set, with the properly ground and honed edges?


See if you have accidentally bought carving tools that have a very thick bevel and no cutting edge on them, they are a real time consuming science to sharpen. There is a lot of metal to remove and it's either on two faces as in the V, or on a curved edge as in the U gouge, and then you have to polish the burr that is created on the inside of the V or U.  Lots of delicate grinding, lapping and honing.

The work is very detailed and accurate. Basically you ARE making a razor blade edge on an oddly shaped pieces of steel.

A plain wood carving chisel is comparatively easy to sharpen when the edge is damaged from accidentally cutting into a hidden nail or  blunt from use or if it's unsharpened out of a packet - it's one straight edge.

If I get one brand new and the edge is less than ideal, while I may grumble some, it's not that big a deal to sharpen them up properly. Or if the chisel is used in general carpentry - if the edge is sharp it does not matter about the lines in the timber from the ding in the cutting edge from hitting a hidden nail, that will take a lot of grinding to remove. You say, "Oh fuck it" and just keep on sharpening from time to time and the 100 or 200 resharpens will cut back about a 1 or 2mm into the chisel, until the nick has gone from the edge.

But carving tools, by and large, as the are a very visual cut, they must present a glassy smooth cut.....

There are heaps of really good videos on Youtube on the entire subject, from sharpening them to using them.

Random samples....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUwKLNVW1AE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWehkp30OJw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3AC1bwm68U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLqScXwLqOM

So the vids are good, but they are demonstrating how to keep a sharp chisel, sharp, not how to back grind all the wrong bevels and pull the edge into existence, from a blunt steel bar....

Carving chisels, are a whole heap of really exact round and multiple faced edges that require specialist hones and grinding techniques - and it's time consuming if you have the specialist tools to do it, and it's about 3 to 4 times as long to sharpen them by doing it all manually and visually. You have to grind and hone both sides of the edge - and in the U shaped gouges it's kind of easy, but on the V shaped cutters, it's not hard, but you really need to be exact.

And there is sharp, as in your typical carving knife, and then there is sharp as in your highly polished specialist cutting edge on wood cutting tools, that DO cut wood like soft cheese with a straight razor - Because they ARE straight razors.

They are THAT sharp, they do slice wood like cheese.  It's a real skill to be able to create these exacting edges and to do it exceptionally well.

And really good tools with really good steels and really good equipment and techniques, in the right hands, make superb edges.

Mind you this is not the be all and end all of what is on the market, but have a look at what some REAL carving tool makers create and sell.


http://www.pfeiltools.com/en/products.html

http://www.carbatec.com.au/pfeil-chisels-knives-individual-sizes_c12550



While these chisels below, were absolutely appallingly shit chisels, just terribly bad edges when I bought them, they were all I could get at the time and the price was very low and I was able to bring them up to what I call a preliminary cutting edge - that is the removal of the flats from the tips and to put a razor edge on them enough to make them into a working tool.

They hold an edge that seems to last well enough and as they wear, then I will take them to being a glassy smooth mirror edge - of perfect adjustment.

It's one thing to grind them into shape and then it's another to hone and lap them to a fine edge. Even more so on small carving tools with intricate shapes.

These I figured would be best to be sharpened and then worn in, by using them until they need a resharpen and then honed and lapped back, and use them until they are in need of a sharpen - and to do this repeatedly until the entire bevel and edge was to spec.

It's the honing and lapping to the right profile that takes such a long time with these tools. The rougher areas, can be "worn into" as the honing process gets down to that level.

As is, they cut alright and hold their edge OK.....

Ahhh the magical mirror "razors edge".

But the Kincrome tools?

The deal is that if you buy tools for a certain price and they talk them up with all this bullshit about how great they are, when they are not even useable out of the packet  -  without MAJOR reworking, this is called "Being lied too." , or being sold shit.

They won't cut the wood and then you have to spend several hours regrinding them and polishing and honing the edges just to get them to work, then you might say spend $120 on the purchase, but then you spend $200 in time getting them all razor sharp.

They cost you several hours of your time to make the tools work, that they told you were shit hot, and by implication, were ready to go from the packet.



 The people in Kincrome are also doing "The great Australian Gouge".

They do mark ups by selling them at about 4 times the retail price of the USA.....

Mind you the wholesale price on them in the USA is probably about $8 to $12 a set..... so that makes the markup about 10 times the price difference.

If I didn't know what shit they were, I could have bought them from the USA with $10 air freight and still have been $80 in front.

Fuck the people in Kincrome - selling shit and ripping you off blind in the process, and costing you way more in lost time, when putting an edge on all of the tools - that should have been there from the factory.


And it's this kind of dead beat antics of selling over priced junk, it costs all the buyers who don't send it back, millions of hours of their time, rather than sorting it out once and for all at the place of production.

I hate being lied too, I hate being ripped off, and I hate being sold crap tools.

The people running Kincrome have just done all three.



Why these people at Kincrome suck.

Many years ago......

 I bought some Kincrome stuff off a supplier in Tasmania, and they were going to ship it up to the mainland and onto me.

(this was really fucked up)

The guy did the order, and said the parts would be there in about 5 days time.

Five days came and went, then 10 days and a phone call was made, and yes they were on their way.... and and and and and - more phone calls, more bullshit - and about 3 or so weeks later I am spitting fucking chips about this because some of the goods were presents for friends and I needed the tools to start on a project - but what does Johnny Debooza in Tasmania do....

Turns out that they have not even got the gear in stock and their order from the mainland will not arrive for a few more weeks - or some fucking bullshit like that, and then they send them onto me.

So the retailer has been paid for the stock, they have paid the people in Kincrome for the parts to be sent to them..... and this is going to take another 1 or 2 months or something, on top of what I have already waited for them.

I dunno - it's all logged, but it was just a fucking disaster.......

It was looking like the marriage from hell - that you would do anything to get out of....

Shit sales staff, fucked up orders, long delays and fucking inept management and more bullshit on the way.

I rang the people in Kincrome who were non too fucking helpful.

I explained the situation and asked, "Can you take the parts from their order, and send it directly to me, so it gets here over night from Melbourne, instead of shipping a pallet full of the stuff across Bass straight, all the way to the bottom of Tasmania, and then they unwrap it all and sort out the orders and then post the parts back to me, up to the ferry, back across Bass straight, back to Melbourne on the mainland and then up to me in Bhum Phuk Victoria....  which is looking like taking another month or something"

And clueless and useless they were much.. "What sammiches are made of bread? I thought bread sticks come from bread trees? We don't sell bread trees, only tools."

Grow a brain cell, make a phone call? Not likely.

Customer Service in Kincrome - when your agents are fuckwits? Same fucking crap.


So I shoved the idea through the ranks to the manager or a manger (?) of Kincrome in Australia...... because it's a simple enough idea....

And I am fucking fed up with all the bullshit thus far. 

I had words with the manager and his attitude was definitely appreciative of talented and on the ball thinking - coming out with comments like, "Who do you think you are? Your just a customer aren't you?"

Never one to refrain from clarifying his position in the food chain - I said, "I am the person who buys the tools - I am THE person who pays your wages - and don't you forget it."

Yes shit service, shit attitude, shit outcome = hired and fired in 3 minutes flat.

Basically - after contemplating the succession of fucking useless human beings, and their bullshit - I contacted the people in Tasmania, and demanded a refund, and found a supplier locally who could come in with the product I wanted at the price point I deemed equitable.

Kincrome = nose dive.


Where the management of Kinchrome fucked it all up...

Speaking of doing the "Great Australian Gouge" and scam - a reputable company run by smart people, would have said to the manufacturer of the carving tools, "OK we are interested, send us some samples of the wood carving tools", and would also have made a number of random purchases from their established market.

Then they would have had the products evaluated by users with experience with these tools and they would have renumerated them for an honest evaluation.

But what did the phoney baloney marketers in Kincrome do?

The cash registers went off inside their heads, and they said,"Bottom dollar price of $12 a 6 tool pack, comparative mark up with say Pfiel carving tools who charge about $380 for a similar but way better 8 piece set - we will sell them at about $120 retail....."

Mindful that while Pfiel do make a most excellent tool, the Buck Bros are cheap shit tools from China...

The folks at Kincrome got greedy and lazy and exhibited their talent for dumping junk tools on the market that are worthless to the consumer. The bottom dollar purchase at the maximum mark up....  And it's shit stuff to begin with.

I reckon most of their tools are kind of shitty bottom dollar product, with a slicker cheap shit campaign to sell them. The reviews tend to be about 50:50 on the subject of Kincrome tools...

"Some of their stuff is good and some of it is crap" - seems to be the general consensus - and most of them seem to think they are OK for the home workshop but not much else.



For all that it costs retail and the time spent on sharpening them up, as well as the softer steels etc., and constant resharpening, people may as well have gone and bought some HIGH QUALITY carving tools, like 2 Cherries or Pfiel etc., and told the folks at Kincrome to shove their carving tools up their arse.

Every bad set they sell - it has repercussions.

It shows that they are a greedy, unethical, cash grabbing company - into the maximum mark up "drop shipping" technique - buying the cheapest shit they can and then ratcheting up the price as much as they can and then dumping it on the market.

They don't even do product testing - even an hours testing and market research would have shown these tools up as complete shit.

They are TOO stupid to do really creative shit like, "Try opening the packet - and looking at them?"


They do NO prescreening or quality control, and every customer that wants to buy something, they spend an hour of their time going and buying it, and then get it home and say, "This is shit" and they if they were smart, they would take the managers of Kincrome to the tribunal for selling products that were not fit for the purpose, and or take them back for a refund. So that is another hour wasted.

So 10,000 customers have 20,000 hours of their lives wasted, because the people in Kincrome couldn't be fucked doing a decent job of prescreening their own product prior to purchase.

The accountability trail goes back to the "Great Neck Tools" - who own Buck Bros and then back to their lack of quality control in China, and back to the manufacturer in China.

The Buck Bros in ancient times, used to make good tools, but since they were bought out by "Great Neck Tools" who run a brand name, their carving tools ARE shit, and probably not selling, so they dump them on the Australian market care of Kincrome... and these people just register mark ups....

Or their purchasing guy is an idiot - for either being clueless enough to buy shit, or stupid enough to think they can buy shit and off load it onto the Australian consumer at grossly inflated prices and the consumer will wear the crap tools and say nothing while they gouge them for everything they can.

http://www.greatnecktools.com - and they sell from $22.50 to $49.50..... LOL

sales@greatnecksaw.com - I sent them the link to this site too... this is your supply chain in action... "shit tools, shit marketing, shit repercussions."

http://www.greatnecktools.com/products/show/306

If for as long as you own this GreatNeck® product you find any defect in material or workmanship, through normal usage, either return it to the place of purchase, or send it to GreatNeck® Tools for repair or replacement at our discretion. In order to obtain this service send your tool and proof of purchase, transportation pre-paid, to GreatNeck® Tools LLC Q.A. Dept, 3580 E. Raines Road #3 , Memphis , TN 38118 . We will not be responsible for lost or damaged goods during transportation, please insure your package.

GreatNeck® does not provide any warranty for products labeled other than GreatNeck® Tools LLC. GreatNeck® will not provide any warranty for products subjected to abnormal use. Abnormal use includes, but is not limited to, abuse, accident, alteration, neglect, and unauthorized or unreasonable use or repairs. This warranty does not cover bits, blades, file, or calibration. We recommend that you maintain your tools and sharpen or replace blades, bits, and files as necessary. GreatNeck® reserves the right to make any changes in construction or design at any time without any obligation in incorporating such changes to tools or equipment previously sold.


Well while their tools are shit - they at least OFFER a better warranty service than the people in Kincrome do with their "lets make them contact us first" policy, instead of the "Post it prepaid to us at"....

The people in Kincrome don't even provide an email address.



 
I also looked at another site and found some reviews on the (Great Neck Tools) "Buck Brothers" carving tool sets.

The wholesale price is I estimate to be around $8 - $12 per set, they sell RETAIL in the USA for $29 at this site.

All of the reviews, except one of them, are 1 out of 5 stars too.

http://www.homedepot.com/buy/buck-bros-6-pieces-wood-carving-tool-set-306.html

*One thing seems to be very consistent about this set: The cutting edges are totally unacceptable for everyone who buys them.
The steel seems to be of Ok quality; nothing remarkable, but good enough to get by.
I would say these are good carving tools if you want to practice sharpening edges correctly or in some cases completely re-doing them, because some of these were atrocious! They're also good if you want an inexpensive set you can abuse and learn with without risking damaging expensive tools.
I recommend these tools if you know what you're doing to make their cutting edges proper.


*Home Depote should not even stock these carving tools. I wasted my money on these and could not sharpen them. I should have bought a set of screw drivers. They would have worked better for carving.



*The edges have to be re-beveled to 30 degrees, mine were at 50!!!! Home depot should re-think selling this brand!!!!!!!!! They are pretty though!!!!!!!!


*As with most gouges these need to be sharpened often quite a bit. Once sharpened they hold an edge and perform well. Mallet can be used on heavy work. the bent one is a waste, as is has little use and sharpens beyond most any carvers ability.


*This tool set is worthless. I cannot cut a single thing, the edge is not sharp at all and is ground to a very steep bevel, so I can't even sharpen it.


*I am starting to do more and more carving while building guitars and other projects. I own some good wood carving tools, but the handles are small. One day while breezing through HD, I saw these and tossed them into the cart.
I didn't open them for a couple weeks,and when I did, I just laid them on the bench and threw away the packaging. Took out the trash, and the next day got to looking at doing final sharpening on these. Ha!!! If I made them myself with horseshoe hammers, I could do better. Total, total junk. I've tried, even with my horse 8" grinding wheel, to make any of them remotely shaped like they should be, and forget it.
Just stay away from Buck Brothers, because it is obvious they never carved anything in their lives.


*These are completely dull, can't do a thing with them. Totally disappointed. Hope they will take them back.


*I tried using the v tool it would not cut in basswood. The angles do not seem to be wright for cutting. Not recommended at all.
If I am wrong please let me know how to use them


*They should call this a "blunt denting tool set" because they don't cut or carve anything. I'd be surprised if I could carve soap with these things.


*they are not sharp. good luck trying to sharpering them.


*My wife thought she was being nice when I told her some of my wood carving tools got lost in a move. She bought these for me thinking they would do until I had time to find or replace the good ones. They had no edge to speak of and the angles were so far away from a good carving bevel that they would have had to be redone even if they weren't dull as a commencement speech. Guess what, they don't sharpen up well and when you finally do get some kind of edge, it doesn't last more than a few cuts before it is dull again. Home Depot should definitely find a better quality wood carving set. This thing is worse than the super-cheap set of 12 that you can get from the junk tool sale places - those at least will hold an edge for a little while, and cost less than 1/3 as much for twice as many tools.


*My daughter got this set, I now have them and have spend several hours trying to get a cutting edge that will actually work. I finaly got them where they might just cut a stick of butter - well maybe warm butter. I wish she would have seen this page before her purchase. JUNK!


This is another site that carries feed back on them.

www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?69580-Buck-Bros-Chisels

* I'm looking for openions concerning the quality of the modern Buck Bros chisels.

* The Ones you buy from the home depot are beaters for rough carpentry work. They won't take a much better edge from sharpening them on a 8000 grit water stone than sharpening them on a concrete floor.

* I know, its 'bad taste' to drag a thread out of the cobwebs, but I found a link to this when searching (with no success) for an email addy for Buck Bros.
I just bought a set of new chisels at Hell Depot because I was too lazy to spend the time hand honing the ones I have which have a lot of chips in the edge from hitting nails and such (not intentionally, trust me, there were some choice words uttered at these occurences!)...I always give a new chisel a hair shaving edge before using them....the chisels I got were so fekked up (out of square, rounded/chipped edges, and nicks in the edge) it took me over an hour to give 4 of them a decent edge....the point I am making is I will never, ever buy one of their chisels again and am currently really pissed off I don't even have an email or phone number to contact them..screw the snail mail....

* as noted in my post, I always expect to give any edged instrument (yes, even a scraping card) a proper edge when its new...I've bought this brand of chisels from the borg for a while now and have never seen a batch as cr@ppy as this one...way out of line with any idea of 'quality control'...


http://lumberjocks.com/topics/1398

*Looks like you’ve already got this solved, but I’ll throw my 2 cents in anyway. Two years ago I took a workshop at the North Bennet Street School in Boston. It was a fantastic experience. I’d recommend it to anyone in the Boston area. One of the things they insisted on was good tools, all of the workshop was hand tools. One of the guys in the class showed up with some Buck Bros. chisels and was told that he really needed to get something else. The two brands that the school store sold were the Marples Blue and I think Crown (I’ll have to go look at my tools to be sure).


In summary:  

Some people are saying the chisels are shit; and 

Don't hold their edge;
  
The metal is soft and gummy on the grinding stones; 

The bevels on some that should be around 25* - 30* are 50* - which is a lot of metal to remove when grinding them; and 

They come as blunt as all fuck out of the packet.

The Pfiel chisels come with a 25* bevel for comparison.


They  wholesale for probably around $8 - $12 in the USA, and retail for as low as $24 in the USA and the people in Kincrome try to get away with selling them for $114 (not including GST) in Australia.

What a fucking scam.

Everyone gets fucked around because they import and distribute shit, Me, the Retailer etc.. and lots of other customers and lots of other retails...

Ripped off and scammed with shit tools selling at four to six times the price of the USA....

All on account of these dead beats at Kincrome. 


1. "Made to Kincrome Australia Pty Ltd specifications and quality standards.....

2. The Kincrome group guarantees these products against faulty workmanship.... and ...... at their discretion, will repair or replace faulty products free of charge."

Well they are not made to their standards, they are redistributed by them - a small but relevant point. And it's just proof positive that they have no standards - they are just profiteers who ship shit, and bullshit you that they have quality control when they don't. If they had ANY quality control, they would not even be putting such shit chisels on the market.

They are just buying big and buying cheap (usually) in China, and marking them up for as much as they can. 

The only difference between Kincrome and some foreign mob flooding the market with cheap imported shit is that Kincrome have an office in Australia.

And "Kincrome guarantees these against faulty workmanship" - coming with unuseable bevels and fucked edges that don't cut - from the packet?  And people are saying they can't be sharpened and don't hold an edge? Yeah fuck off.

A fucking pox on them and their "quality standards".....


So all up:

Millions of tons of fuel, time, effort, money, power, metal, coal, electricity - and all these scammers make the consumer wear their personal problems by not taking responsibility for their own standards and quality of product.

And they just fuck the consumer around, sell them shit and rip them off big time in the process.


Fuck them - don't buy their products.